Page 1131…
Happy Monday, All!
Hope you had a great weekend.
For those of you wondering…
Nicodemus did not mastermind this. He’s just following the clues laid out by the Wraiths.
Defending his world.
Not condoning his actions. He’s still the villain. But at this time…he was still just the counselor to the king.
He warned Arthur of how the Nightmare realm would percieve his actions. He knew they would take steps.
When he had to choose between his human king and his homeworld and people…he was forced to choose Dreamland.
Hope this makes sense.
🙂
Scott
his fall is understandable, as is what happened since then, he is not croupt, but has been croupted by power and anger.
in limbo? sounds like someone watched inception 🙂
I can totally understand why jolly old nick did it. I’m not condoning his actions either, i’m just having a hard time seeing him as a completely cold blooded villian
Still not sure I understand what was threatening Dreamland exactly. An influx of warriors who could wipe the Nightmare Realm off the map using their dream bodies (or at least make it reconsider their former agreements knowing that they could)? Or would Dreamland itself collapse without the Nightmare Realm for reasons still not known to us? Or does human presence as such really hurt Dreamland in some way?
And that green blood of our friend the flamethrower lizard…
Oh well, let’s watch and see.
Yeah! Scot himself confirms it – the Highest Authority(tm).
NIC IS NOT A BAD GUY at this time.
He definetly becomes a bad guy over the centuries following this actions. Probably rationalizing as I mentioned before (“I should have stopped him. But he wouldn’t listen, there was no choice. He did it to himself!”) and being corrupted by a power he probably never wanted (advisor since millenia!).
Thanks for the great story, scott. A propos: what’s up with the store?
Scott, you try your best to show us where Nic choose ‘the dark side’. But for being fond of Arthur he is showing a lot of remorse… After all, Nic knew exactly that Arthur would become trapped and that the poor centaur (and Merlin) were going to be assassinated. If you are willing to accept that as ‘collateral damage’, then at least some regret should be shown. But Nics cold stone reaction shows to me that in his heart, the villain was already present.
If nic truly is regretfull, I’d expect someting like: Why my king…. why? You knew and yet you persevered….
I was a defender of Nic (the poor lad wasn’t born evil), but now … I hope to see some green tears tomorrow or I’m going to cheer for Alex even more!
suuuure you were, Nic :p
So, Nic follows the old “slow dissent into evil” trope? Heh, would that make him a reptilian and far cooler looking Gollum then?
Oh please. Every war has its casualties. Arthur knew this better than anyone, so Nic’s reaction isn’t that cold-hearted. He did what needed to be done to protect his world.
It’s *ALWAYS* the Grand Vizier.
I will expect that at some point we’ll get a monologue from Nicky telling us exactly what the threat WAS that justified that. I.e., what about bringing (say) twenty more human people to Dreamland would do that was so horrible that he absolutely, positively had to betray his own king and trap him forever in a limbo with nothing but the bracelet for company.
That’s gonna have to be one hell of a justification. As others point out, he’s not really showing much remorse; it’s about on the level of someone killing a mouse; it IS kinda cute and fluffy, but you really couldn’t let it go on LIVING, so you had to have it killed. Shame. I’m not even seeing the level of sadness you’d get from having a favorite pet put down, let alone what he should be feeling after arranging the betrayal of his king and, supposedly, friend.
Mind you, they are NOT in war.
Surely there were other means of acomplishing their goal, but they choose for killing.
Why not interfere before the incantation? Or steal the bracelet once it’s formed?
If you start taking caualties for granted, then you’re Evil.
I appreciate this sort of side story when done right – which I think it is in this instance. Nic is not evil but flawed – this gives the room for redemption should you choose to head in that direction.
Really enjoying the jaunt.
Then again, the comment, if read sardonically, is exactly what you’d expect from someone who has gotten fed up with a person they’d been hoping would see reason. Of course, that would make Nic more villainous…but then, that’s how I view traitors against King Arthur. He was entirely too high on my favorite monarchs list for me to feel otherwise. 🙂
> If you start taking caualties for granted, then you’re Evil.
Or you become a President. Not that I could tell the difference, though.
I think the Wraiths sold the idea to Nic that even a single new humand adult appearing in Dreamland would upset the balance there. The amulet could only allow one human at a time to visit, but if one arrived, what would stop 1,000 more amulets being made?
Now we know that Dan has to sleep lightly from now on! Or with the lights on. If/when the wraiths find him and Alex in the waking world, they’d better beware sharp pointy things!
I think at this point, I would’ve done what I could to stop Arthur too. And I’m not evil. Nic clearly loves Dreamland more than Arthur does, and he wants to keep it the same way.
We have to remember that Arthur was doing this for Camelot, not for the good of Dreamland; he wanted to show his enemies the (as of this time) healthy relationship between Dreamland and the Nightmare Realm. The way two worlds with completely different views and goals can co-exist.
It would’ve done Dreamland no good to bring greedy, selfish, impulsive humans in.
It sounds to me like Nicodemus starts out as an anti-villain (he’s not doing it because he’s evil per se, he’s doing it as a last resort to stopping his friend.
Power, as we’ve seen in the past, has a tendency to corrupt. And I think, to some extent, has future actions were fueled by a certain amount of guilt.
Dude, this is really an awesome and much needed part of the story, it provides so much depth!
Bravo to you sir =D
I agree with you, Garwain~ It has been great seeing Nic’s side of the story… but this last remark from Nic did sound a bit cold… maybe it’s just hard to make a dragon with bushy eyebrows look more anguished…?? Maybe the “It’s a pity” phrase is overused in movies as a sarcastic remark?
But yeah, maybe more of a “Why/How did it end up like this” questioning would show more anguish… or maybe a deep sigh… or punching something…. or a last bow to his King… or a “sorry” directed at Arthur instead of “it’s a pity” directed at everyone… Like EVEN if he thought war must have casualties, EVEN if he thought Arthur’s at fault here and the wraiths just did what they had to, he can still be frustrated that things turned out this way…
or maybe this is the turning point where he really hates humans >.> So all his frustrations already passed in the last page when he realized Arthur really was hiding things from him and “betraying dreamland”… by this page, maybe his attitude towards Arthur is already turning cold >.>
This really all reminds me of Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar. Et tu Nic?
When I read Nicodemus’ parts, I hear Tim Curry’s voice in my head hehe.
Nic may not have been the mastermind, but he also did nothing to stop the Wraiths or to warn Arthur properly. Vague warnings like “there will be trouble” doesn’t cut it. he had to know they would do SOMETHING. even if he didn’t, he isn’t going to punish them for essentially assassinating the king.
bad judgment on everyone’s part.
except Scott’s :^D
I was thinking the same thing! Haha.
No.. I think Nic did warn him. He indicated that Arthur should not make him (Nic) choose.
Frankly, I think Arthur was stupid to do this.
From a story perspective, I’m not sure I like having sympathy for Nic… let’s hope he really goes rotten, soon.
Nicodemus is an extremely well-designed character, and conforms perfectly to the dragon archetype – that is to say, he’s a coward.
He tried to convince Arthur to stop out of fear of what the wraiths and the Nightmare Realm would do in retaliation.
He allied with the Wraiths out of fear of what the adult humans would do when they got into Dreamland.
As he gains power in the next 600 years, his fear will turn him into a BULLY.
Granted, I wouldn’t say any of this to his face …
😉
Don’t forget to VOTE! http://topwebcomics.com/vote/4274/default.aspx
It may well have been too late to interrupt beforehand.
As for stealing the bracelet afterwards? Goodbye peace. PRECICELY what Nick would warn would happen.
awww no thats just not right…
Very few evil men think they are evil. Understanding what motivates them does not excuse their behavior. Nicodemus does not seem sympathetic to me so much arrogant and self delusional. After all “HE” has been the true power behind the throne for all these years, “HE” is the one that knows what is best, who does the king think he is to defy him?!
Oh wait, he’s the King. 😛
Well said. This is exactly the way I see it.
Nicodemus has a lot more depth now than he did a couple hundred pages ago. Two-dimensional bad guys who are evil just for the sake of it aren’t interesting, especially not as the villan in a fantasy piece. He’s complicated and our reactions to him as an audience are equally complicated. This is as it should be.
It may even be possible that by using the amulet once an adult human would regain his or her natural ability to enter the Dreamland that most of them enjoy as children. Even so, skillful immigrants are generally a blessing, not a curse.
There’s something amiss in this picture.
Say what now? What’s that?
Not necessarily. Limbo is an old idea, from St. Augustine (d. 430), where certain souls were trapped neither in Heaven or Hell, but in a state between. It seems very appropriate to use it for Arthur and his bracelet, both trapped between worlds.
I love this background to Nic, how he became who he is today and how everything all went wrong. What started out as people with good intentions quickly getting out of hand…and forever changing them. I always say the best villains are the ones whom you can identify, at least to some degree, with how they became a villain. It’s nice to know that Nic wasn’t always evil, that there was at least some reason that the people of Dreamland trusted him enough to put him in a position of power, and to see how that power became corrupted to the point that Nic is willing to do anything to keep humans from regaining power in Dreamland. It makes you wonder if even now, in the present time of the story, if Nic believes he is truly acting in Dreamland’s best interests, not his own. He may have been so deluded by the wraiths, by power, and over time, come to believe that only he knows what is best for Dreamland.
Well done, Scott. I wasn’t really sure where the King Arthur story arc would take us, but I didn’t expect it to be as much about Nicodemus as it was about Arthur. Great work!
There’s a big difference between immigrants, even illegal ones, and invaders. The former come merely to make a life for themselves. The latter come to grab all they can at the expense of the folks who live there. Nicodemus sees humans as the latter.
Thank you all!
🙂
So passes the glory of the world. At the same time, it’d be incredibly amusing (not to mention, totally “just desserts”) if the bracelet was not trapped with Arthur but became literally lost and can thus be found. Not saying that’s even likely but it’d be a delightsome twist and would present a really interesting opportunity to get a deeper look at Nicodemus. If he were to discover that his betrayal of the king he was admittedly fond of were all for nothing and worse yet, if the bracelet ended up in malicious hands instead of those of a man whose goal was to do good, how would he react? Would we get some expression of genuine anguish, a sort of “if Arthur had succeeded, at least it’d have been in good hands”? Again, not saying it’s likely but it’d be interesting.
Was the bracelet lost? Or did the wraiths take it and lie?
That’s funny; I heard James Earl Jones, sans heavy breathing.
Tim Curry would be an acceptable alternative indeed — but no singing. We will not do the Time Warp again.
(Egads, did I just date myself?)
What would really prove the sincerity of his words would be if as they are leaving he stops to look back at Arthur and bows his head in mourning and respect before walking away. Something like that where he’s not putting on an act for someone else would be most telling. Short of that, it all comes down to how much honesty and integrity you think he has at this point.
Erm…
The Wraiths think that the bracelet is trapped along with Arthur.
It seems that they don’t know what happened to the Wraiths send to kill Merlin.
Also we can see the empty hand of Arthur in Dreamland but not his hand in the real world.
Is it also empty there?
Or the bracelet was formed in the real world?
Don’t forget that the bracelet was made to help people travel FROM real world TO Dreamland.
oohhh.. that’s a good one, Lunaroki ^__^
Yes, it makes sense and that’s exactly how I understood this whole episode. Frankly, at this point in time I’m afraid I am on Nicodemus’ side. Arthur was very selfish, giving more value to Camelot than to Dreamland, willing to risk the safety of the latter for the sake of the former. It will be interesting to see how Nicodemus became what he is now because it would seem he actually was a good counselor who warned Arthur not to follow his plans and who had to choose his own people over humans in the end.
Though Nic seems like someone who likes all of his ducks in a row. That he would be so blase about this seems odd. Yes, he could be willing to have Arthur trapped between worlds, but an artifact of that power? Maybe that is part of his corruption, that there is this glaring weak spot out there, somewhere he can not get to, so he surrounds himself with, and consolidates, power again and again “in the best interests of dreamland,” until he turns into the Nic we know. The paranoid dictator angle suits him perhaps.
Wait, how did the Wraiths cross over into the “real world”? Did anyone notice that?
A friend of mine told me once, good and evil is merely perception, what one views as evil another would view as good. I don’t HONESTLY think Nic is evil… and it wasn’t just this part of the story that made me think this….I think Nic really thinks he’s trying to do the right thing… at least for his world, I can see where he’s coming from with it too…. I mean humans can be really selfish, and I’m sure he’s seen his fair share of morally wrong humans (maybe there were some previous kings who weren’t exactly great in the aspect of morals) and if Arthur wanted to bring in people who are against him… whose to say those people might not want to take over Dreamland? Not to mention it’s breaking the pact with the Nightmare Realm which would cause even worse chaos.
But yeah… maybe Nic thinks what he’s doing is right… but maybe he just went about it the wrong way….
Also I think his comment about being “fond” of Arthur was more …to me… a long the lines of, “He’s in my list of better kings, but we weren’t bestest buddies”, also I think he may have been more ,”Well…. at least the bracelet’s gone” kind of thought…after all in that sense objects of that power are too much for it to get into the wrong(or another human king who wants to breech the pact’s) hands…..but this is just my opinion ^^
sure you were, nic, fond of him for dinner!
You’re right. We never did see Arthur’s hand in the real world once the spell was broken.
Nor will we see what happened to Merlin.
I’m noticing quite a few people are realizing something I noticed a while ago, during the initial meeting between Nic and the wraiths. Nic isn’t really a villain per se, more like a passive aggressor, who will eventually become a villain. Though in the future he will still believe he is doing what is best for Dreamland.
What remains to be seen yet, is Nic really and truly right? The heart of man is subject to evil and corruption. Alex and Co. can be described as acting in their own collective interests, out of naivete, instead of the interests of Dreamland as a whole.
Who is right? Only Scott knows, and he’s not telling. 😛
Wow, hope Nic never becomes fond of me! Moral compass swinging wildly.
Oooh, mysterious. Deliberately mysterious. 😀
Nope. Nuh uh. My lips are sealed.
😛
They can go between worlds. They appear just as ghosts (you can see through them) on Earth, though.
Hmm… I guess you are ultimately the authority on whether Nic was evil at the time or not. This whole time I have read every non-evil-sounding/looking thing he has done to be all an act: carefully calculated to manipulate people into believing he has good intentions and is loyal to the king.
Terribly Mysterious. Like the Sphinx …
😉
Interesting choice on the dialog change, Scott. (Well, monologue, really, but who cares … ) I definitely think it’s a change for the better!
You know, many, many people here have expressed sympathy or even agreement with Nicodemus’ point of view. I don’t really understand this. I mean, the bracelet would have let exactly ONE human adult into Dreamland. As powerful as humans are in Dreamland, a single human, closely supervised by Arthur, would not have been a significant threat. As to the suggestion that the bracelet could be duplicated and thousands made, does anyone seriously think that the “barbarian invaders” could really co-opt (or, laughably, force) the simultaneous cooperation of both Merlin (or a Native American shaman) in the waking world, and a centaur shaman in Dreamland? Somehow I doubt that very much, and we’ve seen that that’s what’s required to make one of these bracelets.
So I, for one, maintain that Nicodemus is a weak-willed coward who was easily led down a desired path by the manipulations of the Wraiths, for whatever their dark purposes may be. He had plenty of opportunity to wise up, see what was happening, and stop it, but his fear blinded him and he betrayed his king. He already used up whatever chances he may have had for redemption and forgiveness.
My $0.019999 worth …
😉
(And I still wouldn’t say this to his face. I try not to annoy dragons, at least not directly, for I am crunchy and go well with ketchup … )
😉
Oh me oh my 😀 I hope Nastajia and Alex voice their thoughts on Nick’s apparent transformation, and the new distinct threat of this Abadon character, who I assume is still alive and has plans for Alex and the gang, bad plans.
This is pure AWESOMENESS, Scott. 😀 Nick is a fantastic, complex, and deep villian.
TekServer said it best. Nicodemus, your snide slithy smile sickens me. Great development of his character.
A couple of hundred years of underlying guilt, second guessing, and trying to justify your past actions can take its toll on someone.
And thus began the madness of King Nicodemus.
Ironic statement, seeing that he, by nature of being a dragon, is, in fact, cold blooded. However, I do understand the sentiment. I see him at that point as thinking that because he has been alive so well that he knows what is best for everybody, and so when Arthur disagrees with him (siding with another old, wise counselor) he feels betrayed, and interprets his personal betrayal into a betrayal of all Dreamland.
Because of this he feels he has to do something to stop it, and listens to the advice of the wraiths (thinking himself too old and wise to be manipulated, which made him easy to manipulate), which causes him to betray Arthur, justifying it as being for Dreamland (even though it appears that he actually betrayed Dreamland to the Nightmare realm).
I see Nicodemus as being too full of himself at that point, and when you combine that with ruling Dreamland for several hundred years, we see him becoming so full of himself that he has even tried to rewrite history to show himself to be correct.
Abaddon. Not a god of furry kittens and fuzzy dice. I think he fits the nightmare realm.
The one problem I have with this is the fact that it appears that while Arthur might have chosen loyalty to Camelot over Dreamland, Nicodemus is clearly showing loyalty to the Nightmare Realm over Dreamland (after all, Arthur is still the king of both). He conspired with the Nightmare Realm to basically assassinate the king of Dreamland. Also, the betrayal that Arthur committed was more Arthur listening to the old, wise Merlin, instead of listening to the old, “wise” Nicodemus. If it was really about how it would affect Dreamland, why didn’t Nicodemus side with the Dwarves (who are members of Dreamland) instead of the Wraiths (who are members of the Nightmare Realm)?
I pretty much agree with this. Besides, let’s remember that at This point in history, humans were ALL about wars, conquests, inquisitions and all sorts of other niceties. The Kings that Nic counseled in the past were probably also conquerors or the likes. That probably does Not give him the best opinion of humans as a whole (he’d be right too, since Arthur himself is saying that he wants to bring others in precisely because humans are so petty that they can’t even get along with one another).
It seems to me that it’d be a Lot more likely for the bunch of humans to corrupt Dreamland than for a bunch of aggressive humans to be magically reformed through Dreamland’s display of peaceful coexistence. Much more likely, they’d try to do what everybody else did at that point in History: try to colonize it and exploit it for everything it’s worth. It doesn’t help that Arthur was Purposely trying to bring the Worst of humans into Dreamland, not the friendly harmless old sages. Humans have found plenty of peaceful communities all around the world, and their response was usually to reduce it into slavery.
There is also the context of Dreamland’s “One human king” rule. Until now, Dreamland was united under 1 principle, and it was that there was only 1 adult human around, and that 1 adult human and no other is King. If a hundred more suddenly showed up, it would be at the very least confusing. What if other adult humans went for a power grab and tried to install himself as King in place of Arthur? What if he used the fact that he’s a human as an excuse to order other Dreamlanders around? What if some of the Dreamlanders decide to support another, perhaps more sweet-talking human than Arthur? The risks are non-existent for the humans, but very high for Dreamlanders.
Okay, belay that bit about the dialog change. Apparently, due to site glitches as everything gets back up and running, I got a sneak preview of today’s page early and didn’t realize it, only really looking at the last panel.
😕
So why do the wraiths get to travel back and forth, do they not want to share that power? And they even get to travel with sharp pointy *teeth.* (knives)
gaaawwwww!!! Why are we always left with more questions?
Oh right. Why tell the whole story and reason it all out when the best part of creating storylines is leaving a little freedom for imagination and creativity.
It took Alex a lot of time and training to start using his dream body. Before that, a single little fairy could’ve just grabbed him by his ear and drop into the ocean hadn’t he behaved.
Not much of an invader, really. A nuisance? Maybe. A threat the Dreamlanders couldn’t handle? Definitely not. Not with their King watching these newcomers closely and having some serious air support.
“Close air support covereth a multitude of sins.”
– Rule #4 from Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates
(Relevant to Desmond’s comment above … )
“Close air support and friendly fire should be easier to tell apart.”
– Rule #5 from Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates
(Relevant to the current situation in Dreamland … )
😉
So the bracelet to travel between Our World and Dreamland is stuck ‘between worlds.’ Which means that if Dan and Nicole are ever to enter Dreamland, someone will need to go and get it. I nominate the thief.
The fact that there is so much discussion of Nicodemus and his motives illustrates what a fine job you’ve done in creating this character, Scott. Well done.
@Lunaroki
Pic of Gonzo ftw. Where are mah muppet fans!!